"You talk about "the Vancouver music" like it's a cohesive thing. Like, as a whole, we are deciding where to steer the juggernaut. Good assumption and sounds advice. Next music scene meeting we'll be sure to bring up how we should all stop "trying to cultivating a particularly faceless indie scene" and start really trying to develop more "nationally successful bands".
Saying shit like that, you sound like you're from central Canada.
Good blogging. Keep it up. Watch the punctuation."

"Are you writing your dissertation on the Vancouver music scene? Ease up on the thesaurus, Dickens.
No, I was claiming your statement that Vancouver's music scene is some sort focused unit does not exist. And should not exist. The idea that we are knowingly "cultivating" a "breed of minimally successful and poorly executed experimental college rock" bands instead of something more commercially viable is deluded. You know what the Vancouver scene is? Hundreds of bands, who are members of a bunch of little scenes, whose shows are largely attended by friends, all scrambling to find a new place to play as venues die. Everyone has a good time and only takes it as seriously as they want to.
"The way I see it, the shared factor of Vancouver bands isn't a certain style but very general 'independent' values."
You say that what defines Vancouver's 'indie' music scene is that the bands are independent? Good deduction.
"That our 'scene' is an experiment in anti-commercialism more than it is based upon musical styles. In this sense I see it as aesthetically faceless."

Why would a city's music scene want to be defined by a certain musical style? That is so limiting and I would reckon ultimately counter-production. Usually when bands blow up from a city with a defined "sound" they take years to shake it off as a talking point and an influence. Acquaintances of mine who played in a band in Minneapolis said that the city is just now getting over it's Replacements and Husker Du influence. What other than emo-rap has Minneapolis produced since? Look at the army of Nickleback-like bands that Vancouver has cultivated since their huge popularity. What the fuck has Seattle done since grunge? That's what you want?

Don't you think maybe it's more healthy that a variety of music from Vancouver gains popularity so people are stuck on trying to sound a certain way to get somewhere. To add to your list we have Black Mountain, Ladyhawk, and Pride Tiger. Bison is blowing up and they have members who have played in bands of every conceivable style. Shearing Pinx and Twin Crystals are gaining a lot of popularity in noise and punk circles throughout N.A. Even Fake Shark Real Zombie and Elizabeth, who play music different than all of aforementioned bands, are getting attention abroad. Frog Eyes, (in some ways) Wolf Parade, Dandi Wind, the Organ, Secret Mommy, They Shoot Horses. All such different music gaining a lot of attention in niche genres. That is a what our city is "cultivating", free and open expression on the artists own terms. Not term outlines by some daft blogger. But what do I know? I only grew up here watching this city's music ebb and flow for a decade or so.

If you are making a case for Vancouver to become defined by a sound or some sort of cohesive "face", I disagree. I'd even go so far as to say, 'you're wrong'."

Response!: "Well, to be fair my real comparison here is between Vancouver and Toronto and Montreal rather than, say, Seattle. Rather than looking at a genre that was localised to one city like Grunge was, I think there already is an identifiably Canadian movement within indie rock and it's being spearheaded by our Eastern cousins. Montreal specifically is being called the 'indie capital of North America' and Arcade Fire and Broken Social Scene are probably the two most critically acclaimed and popular indie bands of the current crop. I see it as a genuine shame that Vancouver isn't really contributing to this and I find it difficult not to feel overshadowed. Sure, we have a number of up-and-coming bands but that's true of any huge city.

There's certainly an argument to be made (and you make it well) that in the long term having these flagship bands harms a city's musical diversity. As you say Minneapolis was plagued with watered down mediocre bands for years; however, at least they had an excuse. We already have these derivative bands but without the critical peak of a major band before them. I mean, right now Hedley, of all people, are probably the most famous band from Vancouver. If we are stuck with half a decade of emo pop I'm not sure we'd even notice the difference (regrettably). So yes, I do wish Vancouver would have one or two big, critically acclaimed flagship bands to contribute to this national scene.

Someone could easily write another article about how great it is for us to have this shared indie scene full of diverse musicians without one overbearing behemoth of a band. Personally though, I don't derive much satisfaction from contributing everyone's thirtieth favourite band in each genre. In terms of both critical acclaim and popularity You Say Party! fall way behind the likes of The Rapture and even Radio 4, Frog Eyes fall way behind the likes of Animal Collective and Xiu Xiu, and The Organ fall way behind the likes of Interpol and Bloc party. Perhaps it's just my negative pessimism shining through but I often just feel like Vancouver bands are the also-rans of the indie scene. You are right though that I've probably overdone the harshness of late, and left the positive reviews a little late. My next article is actually a championing of Mother Mother, who I adore, so it's not all doom and gloom. Sorry if it seemed that way!"

""So yes, I do wish Vancouver would have one or two big, critically acclaimed flagship bands to contribute to this national scene."

You already mentioned the New Pornographers. And if you're throwing out names like Broken Social Scene, there isn't a huge difference in popularity between the two. If you want a "two" to go with your "one," Black Mountain are critically lauded and they opened an amphitheatre tour for Coldplay.

The Arcade Fire, admittedly, are getting to another level, but one band doesn't make a scene. And if you spoke to a lot of bands in Montreal - whether they like the Arcade Fire's music or not - they wouldn't want to be lumped in with them. So they aren't indicative of a musical culture either. There are hundreds of bands in Montreal, and 90% of them would want to slap you if you said they sounded like the Arcade Fire, and 9 of the remaining 10% are just being polite if they refrained.

Also, while both cities have strong scenes, the reason that they have an easier time catching the imagination of the music press is because they can drive down to NYC.

Wolf Parade and the Unicorns both have their roots in the West (amongst many other bands, some of whom Cam has mentioned). And while you can point to proximity to the cultural centre of North America as a reason for moving, another reason is people like you. If they had stuck it out on the West Coast, they wouldn't have had such an easy time playing shows to as many people (because there's just not as many people here), and they'd be getting pissed on for "not being big enough" and not contributing to this fictionalized cohesive Canadian indie movement.

Finally, while I have nothing against Mother Mother, the fact that you're planning on championing them after writing this sort of underscores how contradictory an argument it is. They got splashed across some Canadian dailies, but for every celebratory review that Touch Up has received there's another one that pans it, and they're far from filling the Commodore... they didn't even fill the Plaza. Again, nothing against them, but they certainly aren't "making it" in the sense that you alluded to, and they aren't really critically lauded either.

Actually, one last thing about the supposed "poorly executed" music that gets played by locals... Broken Social Scene shows are some of the messiest shows from a technical standpoint. They're all great musicians, but they regularly flub notes, come in off cue, and let songs fall apart. Frankly, I find nothing wrong with that, but if you're trying to suggest that there's some sort of definable difference in musical proficiency between bands in Vancouver and bands here, you don't know anything about playing an instrument."

"I don't agree that The New Pornographers or Black Mountain come anywhere near the critical adoration of Arcade Fire or Broken Social Scene, and if opening for Coldplay is the best we can hope for then god help us.

As for whether or not one band makes a scene, it depends on what you mean by scene. Those Montreal bands who sound nothing like Arcade Fire are, nevertheless, part of an extremely lively scene. To give an example from my own personal perspective, I'm British and grew up during the booming Britpop scene. It was comprised of bands from all over the country and various different sounds and influences, but it was certainly a scene, and it was almost entirely down to Oasis. Bands like Blur and Suede may have been around beforehand, but it was with Oasis' huge and rapid rise to fame that Britpop took off and became a fully fledged movement. Fans eager for more of it started to seek out records by previously unsuccessful bands like Pulp, and record companies starting signing all manner of bands they previously wouldn't have touched. Oasis almost singlehandedly injected all life into the Britpop scene and paved the way for dozens of bands who, although they sounded nothing like Oasis, were still indebted to them. Those bands, too, were far from bad or average, there were some really excellent groups (Supergrass, The Bluetones, Kula Shaker, not to mention Blur's subsequent explosion).

Now, I know, Oasis are terrible these days and were already losing their edge by the time they made it to America, so I understand it's really hard for people on these shores to understand that mid-90s scene. It really did exemplify the country and the decade for Brits, though, and I'm still to this day immensely proud of those bands. From what I can gather that's the gist of this article. People in Toronto and Montreal must be loving their music scene right now, and will look back on this period with a tear in their eye. Vancouver will end up in a similar position to my own hometown of Leeds, whose only contribution to Britpop was the truely woeful Chumbawumba :\"